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Intuitive Choices
Intuitive Choices is a podcast which asks and answers the question, "What is intuition and how can it help us". Philadelphia based mental health therapists, Kimberley Dobbs and Jacob Miller, hold conversations with guests who have made brave choices to live more meaningful lives.
If you know any inspirational people who you would like us to interview, please let us know at intuitive.choices.podcast@gmail.com
***Please note that these episodes are not recorded therapy sessions and that listening to this podcast is not considered an alternative to mental health therapy.***
If you are interested in mental health therapy please visit us at our practices website at intuitivecounselingofphilly.com
We hope you enjoy the show!
Intuitive Choices
Birth Positive: Lauren Seidman's Journey in Redefining Success by Rediscovering Herself
Lauren Seidman entered college with a well thought out plan. Work hard, use her intellect to the fullest, take the LSAT, and build a strong career. The plan was to do what she felt she was "supposed to do". You know, live a normal life. But life had other plans for Lauren. In feeling the disconnected from her work in consulting Lauren strove to find a career that filled her with passion and inspiration, she made the tough decision of leaving her job and embarked on an unexpected journey towards becoming a childbirth educator.
Lauren’s transition from consulting to childbirth education wasn’t smooth, with stigma and judgment surrounding her decision to leave a promising career and to become a stay at home mom. Yet, she persevered, recognizing that life isn’t about choosing between one path or another, but more about finding harmony and compromise between your strengths and passions. Today Lauren is the driving force behind the Birth Positive Childbirth Education program.
Lauren's Website
https://bebirthpositive.com/
Lauren's Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/birth_positive
To hear Lauren's Birth Stories
https://prenatalyogacenter.com/community-birth-story-from-hospital-birth-to-home-birth-with-lauren-seidman/
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Intuitive Choices. I'm Kim.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jacob.
Speaker 1:And today we are super pumped because we have with us Lauren Seidman. Jacob, tell us a little bit about our gal here.
Speaker 2:So let me tell you I've been so excited to have Lauren on. I've wanted to have her on for a while now, and the reason I'm so excited is because Lauren is a birth educator, childbirth educator. She is the creator and facilitator of the birth positive childbirth education program system. Whatever language you're going to use that, but I'll tell you that my wife and I are personally grateful to Lauren for her help with us bringing our she's facilitated, she helped facilitate, she facilitated.
Speaker 2:We had fantastic classes with Lauren and let me tell you, even though I consider myself like not the most uneducated person in the world and I had health classes in high school and my wife herself is a doctor Lauren still taught us so much about not only how children come into the world, but what our choices and options are with children coming into the world, and she gave us so much confidence and clarity in what choices we had. And when my wife was giving birth to our son, many nurses and doctors said I can't believe. This is your first kid. You're doing great.
Speaker 1:Which we're attributing, it sounds like, directly to Lauren.
Speaker 2:To Lauren and certainly my wife.
Speaker 1:But she did do all the work.
Speaker 2:She was incredible. Anyway, we want to welcome you, lauren.
Speaker 1:This is so awesome because I think we're going to talk about some important stuff today. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me and thank you for that very generous introduction.
Speaker 2:You deserve much more.
Speaker 1:We just don't have the time, all right. But, here's the thing, right, this was a career change for you. My understanding I don't know much about you, but my understanding is you did a whole other thing with your life before you became a childbirth educator. Slash doula, right.
Speaker 3:Yes, that is correct All right.
Speaker 2:So how did it start? What was life like before being a childbirth educator?
Speaker 3:Great question. I will give a little background story. Well, first of all, certainly when I was asked in elementary or middle school, what do you want to be when you grow up, it was not a childbirth educator, okay, I don't think that was ever on my radar. Really, I always thought I wanted to be a lawyer. That was my answer to that question what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a lawyer.
Speaker 2:What do you want to know? Yeah, from how old? Where does? That come from Sounds like a very confident, I guess, high school. High school time, maybe before.
Speaker 3:I don't remember exactly that?
Speaker 1:Do you know why? What inspired you to want to be a lawyer, though?
Speaker 3:That's actually an interesting way to word that question. What inspired you to want to be that? I grew up in a very nice typical Jewish family where lawyer, doctor, any sort of professional little stereotypical there. My dad is a physician. I wanted to have this professional career path because that was kind of normal. That's what people do? You go to college and maybe you get a graduate degree. I felt like okay.
Speaker 3:I don't mind arguing and proving my point. I'm smart and I could get into law school, so why don't I just try to do that? Then, when it came to applying for college, you kind of have to niche yourself into what your future aspirations are. I just landed on that. After college, I ended up getting introduced to consulting as a career path I focused on. My major was called Industrial and Labor Relations, which is just a fancy way of saying study of the workplace. A lot of people either go into a labor law with that degree or they go into consulting or other things too, obviously, but a lot of people go into a consulting path and I started to get more interested in consulting.
Speaker 2:Where were you in college?
Speaker 3:I went to Cornell.
Speaker 2:Was it at Cornell? Was this like a hot, major kind of thing? Do you feel like there's a lot of people going towards it?
Speaker 3:Basically, if you think you want to go to law school, you do this major.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's interesting More or less. You were really hell bent on pursuing or being an attorney. You were like, okay, I'm doing it yeah yeah, okay, right, I'm looking back now.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure that I felt like, oh, this really fits my personal identity and it really gets me excited inside. It was more just like this seems interesting enough and like I could do it so I'm just gonna try to pursue that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is interesting enough, but like it's so.
Speaker 2:When Kim asked if you were inspired, yeah, yeah, it does not sound like. That is the yeah, inspired definitely applies to what I do now, but not what I was thinking I was gonna do that yeah, was inspiration something that like spoke to you, that anyone like ever highlight the importance of being inspired, or were ever around someone who you felt was inspired?
Speaker 3:Good question, I don't know. Yeah, I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:Lauren, if you have to think that hard, yeah, the answers probably no, you know, and that's okay, right, because what you're, what it's highlighting is, I think, like the culture you grew up in, right, all of these things, sort of like there was a narrative, right. Like this is what you do, this is what six, you know, I don't mean to speak for you, so if any of this doesn't resonate, just say it. But like this is what success looks like, this is, this is, this is what it means to like do life well is like you go to college, you go to a great college, you work hard and you like do one of these, like you know, pretty like yeah nice professions, right?
Speaker 1:quote-unquote, because there's a lot of people who don't like them and so and it sounds like that was a little bit like that for you right, I think that's that's pretty accurate did you get any satisfaction out of?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think of better words for this, but did you get any satisfaction of like or comfort? Maybe were you. Were you comforted by knowing you were doing what you were like quote-unquote supposed to do?
Speaker 3:and that's a good question, I I think so. It definitely felt it's felt safe in quotes that was approved in quotes, you know yeah like stamp of approval. You know this is like an acceptable career path yeah, okay because it's a respected career, you can make a decent living and it shows people that you're smart and you have, you know, a good degree on your wall and all of those things yeah, like, yeah, like you're good on paper.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good on paper yeah and I, you know, I definitely think like intellectually, I found it interesting and stimulating. But when you use the verb inspirate, inspired, I'm not gonna say that I felt inspired in a in a emotional way.
Speaker 2:I will say that it I I'm at least I'm grateful for you that at least it was enjoy.
Speaker 3:There's parts of it that were enjoyable, right for sure yeah it wasn't like you're forced to do this and you have to do it whether you like it or not. I definitely had an interest in it. I just don't think that interest came from a place of of. This really excites me in a deep way it was more just like this is one of the available. This is like one of the career paths that I felt like was normal in my circles and I found it intellectually stimulating.
Speaker 3:So there definitely was that. You know, I did take my LSATs. I found it fun to take the LSATs. Lsats are fun.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I have never heard anyone say that no, I know so I know a lot of people took the LSATs so do I, and that's a first. It's so funny to think that there's these people who took the LSAT and hated it and are lawyers and you took the. Lsat and enjoyed it and are not a lawyer yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:Did you end up going to law?
Speaker 3:school? No, I didn't. But the results are good for five years, so I took it. I took it when I was a senior in college, just so I could have it if I ever decided to go back so it was the what was the step post college yeah, post college, right.
Speaker 3:So I started saying that I got introduced to consulting through one of the career fairs that we had. I found out about specifically Deloitte consulting, which is a big professional services firm, and I just I connected with the people that worked there. I thought it was an interesting type of work to do and I I guess I at a certain point I don't remember exactly when I feel like I got a little bit less convinced that I wanted to go to law school. So I was kind of like I don't want to go to law school necessarily right after college, let me see if I can get a job with Deloitte and applied for, obviously, other jobs too. I went to, was like putting on my egg someone basket, but they were my first choice and I ended up just applying for HR jobs, hr consulting jobs, and was like, okay, I'm gonna do that and if I ever decide I want to go back to law school then I will.
Speaker 3:I think I realized like law school is like very expensive and three years and if I wasn't sure, then that didn't really make a lot to do that. Yeah, like you got to be sure, it's like a huge, big commitment financially and time-wise. So I wasn't sure. I ended up getting a job with Deloitte, and I started working there right after I graduated college so what does it mean?
Speaker 2:what is it? What kind of consultant?
Speaker 3:it's called human capital what is that?
Speaker 1:like, yeah, what is that? It really quickly. What is that? What does it even do?
Speaker 3:what does that mean? Yeah, so human capital means that that we help companies tackle problems related to their workforce.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, does that mean like, yeah, maintaining a workforce? That mean like keeping people happy while they're working for you. Finding employees like what's that entail?
Speaker 3:everything. I mean everything. There's HR technology, there are HR, you know, restructuring if there's mergers, a merger, acquisition, how to integrate the new employees, like there's they're. They work with large companies on large projects. Anything you could think of that relates to employees. We basically did that so what did?
Speaker 2:what did you do personally?
Speaker 3:personally like day to day.
Speaker 2:I mean not every day, but, like you know, I like my focus. Yeah, um.
Speaker 3:I I did a few different things, I guess. When I first started, I worked on a project that was related to um you really want to know. It was like merger in the mergers and acquisitions space, um and then, after that, I worked on a project related to helping a company redesign their payroll system.
Speaker 2:What does that mean?
Speaker 3:Like how they pay their employees. Can I just, can I interject, really?
Speaker 1:quickly Because you're so I don't even know you. This is my second conversation with you in life and you're so personable and the work that you do now is so like, human centered and even just a little bit. That you're describing sounds so removed from the human connection, was it yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's like very on point.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, and like, whoa, like, and the thing is there. There are really things in life where, like you can't know something's not a fit until you're in it and I feel like that's right. That's like everything that we're saying right now about your life, right, like you know the you know applying for law school, if you were going to do that, and like going through college, and it's just like you can't know what, what a deep and meaningful experience is until you have one to know that, what that feels like. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:So, true, yes, and it's like, that's like what?
Speaker 1:your pride. It just feels like, like your process is just like unfolding in that direction.
Speaker 3:Right, I think that's very fair yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you think of any moments while at Deloitte where you just felt like this Maybe not be the right place for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely had those moments, um I just I didn't feel like I just I felt like sometimes I didn't. I just didn't feel like so connected to what I was doing like. I would, I could do it, but I didn't feel like passionate about it. And then I would see other people who were like Super passionate about and then super into it, and then I'm like is there something wrong with me?
Speaker 2:It's funny that you say like that the question turned back on you like is there something wrong with me? Because honestly I would think like, is there something wrong with them? Like I think that's like. I felt that working in other places in the past, like how can anyone like this? I guess that's.
Speaker 3:I guess that's fair. I there was probably enough those thoughts too. But you know what? There's something for everyone out there, and different people get their energy from different things.
Speaker 3:So I had a few times like that. You know I would have like managers or who are really into their work. And you know, at a big firm like Deloitte, there are people at partner level who have been at the firm for years and years and years, like you would think you know they really like what they do. Okay, that's a whole conversation we could have. You know, it's not necessarily true, but there were definitely people who were like deeply invested in their work and really like Genuinely liked it and like the client relationships and all the things. Um, and I just sort of felt like it got to a point where it was like enough times I was, I was like okay, I feel like I'm. This doesn't resonate with me and I feel like I have to fake it and if and if I'm gonna be at the shop every single day, I can't do that anymore.
Speaker 2:What did um like, what did faking it look like and who were you faking to like? We're faking to yourself.
Speaker 3:You're faking to co-workers like what, what I look like both like I guess to call it co-workers just like just going about the motions but not really feeling so passionately about it um, and I think sort of like.
Speaker 3:So basically, I started working there and then In 2012, and then in 2015, I had my son, mm-hmm, and so I think I Not I think I know what started happening was that I was having these doubts about is this really the right career path for me? But then, on top of that, having a child and starting my family, bummed they but.
Speaker 3:I don't quote me on that, but she basically was saying you know, your kids are your kids are always going to win. Basically, in terms of, like, what would you? Where would you rather be? Like, would you rather be with your kids or would you rather be at work? Most parents are going to say like they want to spend time with their kids. However, the reality for most parents is that you are going to have a job, so whatever job you're doing needs to be like a really strong pull. Yeah, I feel like that. That really started to come up for me, like I'm really pulled to be with my kids more. Okay, so if I'm going to be leaving them to do a job outside of the home, it became much more important for me to feel like, yeah, I'm really connected to what I'm doing outside the home. Yes, does that make sense Of?
Speaker 2:course I I I cannot believe, like I've been a dad for eight months Wow.
Speaker 1:That's so not a lot of time. I've never heard a phrase that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I'm actually just transitioning into thinking of myself as a dad instead of someone with a kid. Good for you, Jacob, that's a step, but. But even like I'm very grateful that I love being a therapist, but I just I cannot believe how, again, how short I've been a dad and how much. I know what you're saying is true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Especially an eight month old. That's like the cutest age of all time.
Speaker 2:I'll send you some pictures. He is so cute, it's crazy, and he knows it.
Speaker 1:Guys, can I just say I've been a mom, because I want to say it in the exact same way that you just did, because I think it's interesting. I've been a mom for 15 and a half years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh wow, that is a lot of years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how many, how many years, lauren, have you been a mom?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Guys I love saying it this way, it's so great. So so, how many kids do you have? Four, four, oh my God, that's so ambitious. Good for you, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's the?
Speaker 1:I can't even see from her. I wonder what face she just made when she went yeah, she's both smiling and tired.
Speaker 3:Smiling and sighing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how? Because we're going to segue into, like the child-worth education and stuff like this, because I think it's going to be, it's natural. But how old are you? All of like in the ages?
Speaker 3:So my oldest, he'll be eight. I mean he'll be eight in December.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then my next, my daughter. She just turned six.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then I have another daughter who's three and a half, and then my littlest he is 15 months.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's fun. Good for you.
Speaker 2:It's so funny I can't believe. I never thought I'd feel this way, but like I love babies now, I didn't know that was going to happen.
Speaker 1:You didn't love babies before. No, I didn't either.
Speaker 2:To be quite honest, yeah, yeah, I love my babies when you get to know a baby you really appreciate them more.
Speaker 2:When, when you're telling, like just touching on the fact how, after after becoming a mom, that you felt like the consulting work was not enough to continue to, it just was losing out every time, essentially 100%. Um, I had a supervisor when I was at Memorial Sloan Kettering, as when I was a research assistant who had her second child while I was working for her, I think, and one day she was on maternity leave for a while. Then she came back and one day she calls me into a meeting and, to be perfectly honest, I don't know if I was the best supervisee to her. Um and uh, we had a uh, she was like it seemed like a very serious meeting and I thought I was about to get in trouble, honestly. And then she kind of said how like she was reducing her workload to like I forget if she said like two days a week or three days a week because she wanted to spend more time with her kids. And I was like, oh, that's, that's great, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:And she like got shocked and she was like, well, why do you say that? And I was like, well, what's more important in life than, like, raising kids? Like that's the whole point. Like, if you have kids. Like don't, don't you want to raise them.
Speaker 2:And she like I think I disarmed her a little bit because I I could just tell that she was getting so much pushback from either like friends and family or even colleagues that like how can you be like you're a, you're a woman living in Manhattan, you're really going to pick your kids over your career, like we work so hard to get here? But she's what she said to me. She said she was not getting a lot of support in making this decision and she said the thing that broke the camel's back for her was they were out at like a playground with her and a friend and like the nannies were there with all the kids and the kid fell. One of the kids fell and hurt, hurt his knee and he ran over to the nanny instead of to the mom and she was like I do not want this relationship with my kids. I want, I want to be the one they run to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's such a hard balance for for modern working parents to strike Like. That is it's it's painful.
Speaker 3:It's really hard.
Speaker 1:So did you leave consulting after you had? Did you say you left after your first child was born? I did not. I kept working. Okay, so it's to say a little bit more. So how?
Speaker 2:long did it?
Speaker 1:take you to finally be like look, I need to have a conversation with my husband because this is great, so he was born in 2015,.
Speaker 3:two Deloitte's credit, and I do. I do want to say on the air that they are one of the companies that is very good to parents.
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 3:They have six months fully paid parental leave.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:Wow, and they are really one of the companies that I wish other companies would be like that. So I do want to say that I'm of a lot of gratitude to the way that they, you know, try to help support working parents. But to their credit, you know, I, after I had Aliahou that's my son, he, they let me have more flexibility. So typically in consulting you're traveling, and this is all pre COVID. Okay, so now, post COVID, I'm starting it's all different, but pre COVID it's you're traveling three, you're out of, you're not home, three nights a week You're traveling.
Speaker 1:Monday to Thursday night. That's like standard every week. That's a lot.
Speaker 3:So they put me on a project where I have more flexibility so I didn't have to travel like that. I had to travel sometimes, but not like that. They did try to work with me. So I worked on that project until I got pregnant with Shoshana, my older daughter, and then I went out on maternity leave and it was six months maternity leave and then I tried talking to them while I was on maternity leave. At that point it's really the Kim, it was like just to answer your question. At that point it was kind of like okay, what are we going to do here?
Speaker 1:Because I was already starting to feel like that's your chance, right, you break up. It's the look, it's a breakup moment, exactly.
Speaker 3:I was like still having. I remember when I was really pregnant with Eliaho, I went into the office one day and he at that time they're less than two years apart, so at that time he was like 18 months or 19 months, which is like the most adorable, yummy age of all time. Okay, I said that about eight months, but like this little young toddler, age is old.
Speaker 1:I remember- you can tell she just like, lives and breathes for being a mom, because every age is going to be like this is the first generation.
Speaker 2:Tell me about 18 months. That was it.
Speaker 3:Yum, I remember leaving my apartment one day and he was sitting in the stroller going to school and my daddy was gonna walk Into school and I just remember like how cute he looked in the stroller and I went that into my office and I just there's a like a male partner there and I just who I knew? And I said hide him. And I just like lost it, like I had a full breakdown crying, so I was like I want to be with my kid, like this is just crazy.
Speaker 3:He was so cute so I I knew I and it was. I started getting like jealous of my nanny. I guess it's similar, jacob, oh that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, I was like that's not fair. She spent so much time with him, I want to spend time with him. So, anyway, and I had to shana. I was on maternity leave for six months. I spoke to HR and all the people I needed to speak to. I was on maternity leave to see like what the flexibility would be. I try to go. I tried to go back on a reduced workload, like your boss did, and that wasn't really. It wasn't really possible at that time. Again, I was. I was placed on a project that offered more flexibility so I wouldn't have to travel, which was good. But then, like Six months into me going back to work, like when she, shana, was one, I it was like I had enough. I was like I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1:Because then it's what was the thing that happened? I feel like something happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so. So I think what happened was a couple things. One is, even though I wasn't traveling, the project I was on was still pretty demanding, okay, and so just that needing to be like very available for, for meetings and for clients Started to get really challenging In conjunction with the fact that my husband actually started a new job when Shoshana was born, so he was a year into his new job and his job was also super demanding.
Speaker 3:Okay and he had no flexibility. So it started to become like if any, if we needed anything, if, if we needed to get anything done for the kids.
Speaker 3:It kept falling on me, like just taking them to the doctor or to you picking them up from school, or if they got sick, or, and then I would get and do it worked with me. They're like you can Sign off early, be home with your kids, like in the afternoon hours, like the four to seven time, and then like I was logging back online at night to finish work and it was just like Something has to give, like I can't. This is just it's just it's unsustainable.
Speaker 3:It was not sustainable. Yeah, and I wanted to say also, I think part of that, now that I'm like more removed from it, I like look back and I'm just yeah, obviously that was not sustainable, but I think part of this one thing that made it hard, or makes it hard is it's feeling like is there's like again, like is there something wrong with me that I can't figure this out, because it seems like so many people are making this work and it. It wasn't about like hiring more help or getting more nannies. It was it. It was just like my Quality of life was just like. This is not.
Speaker 1:I I see this so much with the clients that I have, the mom clients that I have that are that are working, working in Incorporate you know jobs and have the kids. Yeah, this is such a I mean I cannot count how many times in session I've heard somebody go but all there, I see all these people doing it and I always say, yeah, you see them doing it on Facebook you know, Instagram, but, like you know you, it's like it is so hard to do and that time has to come that energy and time is not infinite.
Speaker 1:It's not an infinite amount of time and energy that we have, so it has to get pulled from somewhere.
Speaker 1:And when you get to that point in your life, which you clearly did when Shoshana was a year old. It was like it becomes almost like this, it is epiphany, almost where you're just like I can't. There's nothing left to give. You know what I mean to this thing and I have to find the energy and space to do it somewhere. So something has to stop, like you have to stop doing a thing. It sounds like you stopped.
Speaker 1:You know, like you were like alright, this time stop to end this relationship with this, with this job, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:If I could, I could I say a question the opposite way. Then it's so palpable how much you love your children. Yeah, and how much you love being a mom. So what was the pull? To stay at the Lloyd as long as you did.
Speaker 3:Oh, interesting, um good one. I think that. Why did I say as long as I did? I think I wanted to try, I think I wanted the like, satisfaction I guess for lack of a better word satisfaction of knowing I tried everything first like I tried to work with them on the flexibility peace you know. I tried to Work while my kids were in school and then be with them in the afternoon, and then working like I wanted to feel. I tried all the things before Cutting. You know, cutting the course it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like you knew it's it would not. I don't think it would be a fair question to me to that ask. You know, like well, if you could go back and do it again, would you just left in the beginning? Because that's, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3:No, you have to do right.
Speaker 2:You had to, you had to go through the steps and confirm with yourself at each, each step.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, you, you first, and then I'll ask my question.
Speaker 3:Go ahead and I think there's also just this. I Think there's just this like stigma, like quitting your job like you have a good job. Why are you gonna quit that job?
Speaker 1:You want to know. I was gonna ask you they gave you six months maternity right.
Speaker 2:They, you know they just ask for your life in return you what they just asked for your whole life in return. I, I was gonna ask, maybe I know you know it didn't look like you agreed with that, so I'm gonna let you respond to that, because I don't want to speak for you your whole life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's like a little bit extreme. Yeah but it's. I Felt like I was giving a lot of my energy and at a certain point, especially once we had a second kid, we started to also do the math about child care and Like yeah my salary and it was like salary versus child care versus and also salary versus sanity. Am I, am I getting, and is the amount of money that I'm earning worth it for the amount that this is affecting my Sanity?
Speaker 3:yeah, and we got to the point where I was just like no, I also. I also don't believe that when people anyone listening to this, you know, I think when you make that Calculation of child care costs versus salary, I do not think that it should only come from the wife's side Just saying, yeah, but in my situation it was not just me versus child care and I wanted to work, but it didn't make sense. That wasn't it. It was like child care compensation and quality of life and sanity, like there was also that piece to it.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. I don't want anyone to be listening to me like, okay, well, I love my job, but I don't get paid enough. I only get paid enough to pay my babysitter. So maybe I should quit too. Like, no, I definitely it's also this part of like feeling your soul, like how does it affect you?
Speaker 1:I think for me, like when I first had Molly, my paycheck went to child care and I knew for myself, but I was a therapist, right, and I knew. I always have known for myself like I need to do this. I have to do this work.
Speaker 1:I have to. But, speaking, going back to the stigma of it, the question I was going to ask you, I think, is connected to the question, which is, like, do you feel like there was some ego involved in you feeling like you know, like I need to stay at this job, you know like this, like, oh, I like failed at this, or there's a stigma around you know those kinds of? That's what I was going to ask you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like oh, you went to an Ivy like school and now you're a stay at home mother.
Speaker 1:There it is, ooh.
Speaker 2:That drives me nuts.
Speaker 1:I get so like like give me a, like a pit in my stomach just hearing you say that out loud.
Speaker 3:I mean, I still, I still feel that on some level, that's totally fair and understandable.
Speaker 2:But, like I, this is like the idealist, like in me is just like there literally cannot be anything more important to humanity or a civilization than the caretaking of children. That has to literally be the most important thing, and I just wish that it would be valued more by a society. It's like I don't know if this is because I grew up in a family of teachers, or because, like I really felt, like I was like the center of-.
Speaker 1:You've always wanted to be a grandpa too. And I always wanted to be a grandfather.
Speaker 2:That's true, and I felt like I was at the center of my mom's life but like I'm so ex, I was so excited to. I think I've spoken to this before. But, like so much of me, changing my life was because I wanted to be a grandfather. Therefore, I had to learn how to be like myself and learn how to be a grandfather, and I had to be like myself and learn how to be a husband and then learn how to be a father, and then learn.
Speaker 2:I always learned all of them, but I just really felt for what you said.
Speaker 1:I also just wanted to touch base on what you were saying about gosh. I just love that you said it. I went to an Ivy League school and I'm just a stay at home mom Because the thing is and while I agree with Jacob, like there's such, if you choose to become a parent, valuing that and having a society that supports that, is important, but also recognizing too that, like, life isn't about making choices that are one or the other, that like, because you went to an Ivy League school, this means you're supposed to have that. This is like an equation right, ivy League school or, let's just say, college, right, bachelor's degree, anybody? Right? It's like I hear this again.
Speaker 1:It's like such a common theme in the conversations I have with so many of my clients over the years that it's like just because of this doesn't mean that anything is a waste, a waste of time. It's because it's all an accumulation, everything we've ever experienced, right Like it's just it's a part of where you are in this exact moment. So it's like going to Cornell for so many different reasons is a part of who you are today, right? So yeah, I just don't think it's a just don't think it's like, I don't think it's a mathematical equation. I think it's all a part of. It just becomes a part of your story, you know.
Speaker 3:As you live your life. I think, yeah, I think that is, I think that's important for, I think, people to hear, and validating for me personally, oh, good, and I do think that that was part of my hesitation in leaving my job. Yeah, like I can't quote unquote, give up that easily.
Speaker 2:But it certainly was not easy. But you also did it Like you overcame, like stigma and like some weird, like I don't know if it counts as a sunk cost fallacy, but like having gone to Naive League school and now taking this next step. And then not only did that, it sounds like those choices helped you align with who you felt you were in that moment. But then, if you know, if we have this context of like work is something that you, as a parent, work is something that you should feel drawn to, in addition to being drawn to your kids, then you create your own field as a childbirth educator.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 2:So wait is that wait so how did that happen?
Speaker 3:Like what's the? Can you explain the transition? How'd you go from consulting to childbirth education?
Speaker 2:Different kind of consulting one-on-one consultant.
Speaker 3:So how did I get into the childbirth educator role? So I, when I was pregnant with Eliahou, I started, like any other first time parent, trying to do the research and learn what I could, and I started to get interested in birth information and birth experience. But then so my birth with him was it was fine.
Speaker 1:Can you do me a favor? And I think maybe I'm projecting because I have so many new moms right now that have shared with me over the last year. They're birthing experiences, they're laboring experience and a lot of them have had very, so I actually would love to use this as an opportunity to like no, maybe if you say it's fine, I don't. That doesn't sound like fine is good. So why?
Speaker 3:Right? How do I answer this? So, basically, there were certain things about the birth that were really important to me and I was able to have that, but there was, there were other aspects where I didn't feel like I was, like I had autonomy or I was like being respected by my care provider. So that's where I guess it would fall on fine, like there was. No, I didn't have any like major complications and everything was like relatively straightforward. It was more like the how I was treated, piece.
Speaker 1:But I really wanna emphasize that, how important that is Because, again, many of my clients have had experiences where they've had, thank goodness, a healthy labor and birth experience. But when you are in labor and giving birth right and you are not seen and heard and that experience is sort of you know, in any way doesn't feel like your own or it feels like it's somebody else's agenda. That is not okay.
Speaker 3:Correct preaching to the choir. No, no, no, I'm saying that because that's what you just said.
Speaker 1:That's what fine meat meant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not okay, that's what. Fine meant exactly 100%, and so it was really like my own birth experience and then that got me more of like riled up about trying to help other people have and have better experiences. But it wasn't just that, it was also after I had him, like the postpartum recovery aspect. And, kim, I'm curious if your clients share about their shock when it comes to the postpartum recovery. Postpartum recovery was a huge shock for me. It was very difficult for me.
Speaker 1:What was difficult Emotionally.
Speaker 3:I don't feel like anyone talked to me in a real way about what to expect. I didn't have any friends who had had babies before me, so no one gave me the heads up. I think that I had good family support and help, but I think I could have been supported in other ways that would have made it better. Sounds like you felt really alone, honestly.
Speaker 1:I felt alone.
Speaker 3:My husband got zero paternity leave.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3:What? And it was, I went yeah. I mean okay, zero maybe he had two weeks. I consider two weeks paternity leave zero.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a zero.
Speaker 3:Because also with a boy, basically like Jacob you probably know this you have a bris. A week that takes up the whole first week figuring out what we're gonna do with the bris and then only after the bris I've had two boys. Now I feel like you can relax and act like, okay, enjoy the baby. So that left my husband with five more days and then he was back to her.
Speaker 2:Just so people don't know. The bris is the ritual circumcision ceremony that initiates a Jewish man into the people. It's a huge deal. It is a huge deal and it's, like you know, like a surgery done in a public space.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of and a party Right and a party Catering, it's a whole thing.
Speaker 3:Hosing other people, which is like-.
Speaker 2:And I don't know about you, lauren, but we also had we did a pideon aben, which is like a whole another ceremony, which is like a more rare Jewish ceremony, which is like 30 days after a first son is born to a mother that has not had a previous child or miscarriage.
Speaker 2:Then there's a whole another ceremony that's done, and because it's so rare, it seemed like a bigger deal. And in my circles there's a thing where, like everyone is automatically invited and you cannot like turn people away, so like you just don't know who's gonna show up, and so that's kind of yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1:Well, and to add so that's kind of like the background. And one more thing I had a C-section so I had the brisk and I was recovering from my own surgery too, right, so there's a lot around that, but yes, I spent one right back to work.
Speaker 3:And-.
Speaker 1:I was all right right back to work. So now it's just you and your baby.
Speaker 3:Just me and my baby at our tiny one bedroom apartment. Oh my God, In the he was born December 29th.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. And it was so cool.
Speaker 3:Like these past couple of winters we've had have been very mild.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The winter of 2015.
Speaker 1:I remember that. Winter, yeah, and terrible storms. Do you remember this? Yeah?
Speaker 3:very bad snowstorm Like. I remember being stuck in my apartment, yeah so yeah, it was just really lonely, thank goodness I had one very close friend who had a baby five days before I did her first baby and she was like my, my person. So I, you know, I that was life saving. But in general the postpartum period was not enjoyable and it really rocked me.
Speaker 3:So, I started like telling all my friends who were going to have babies like, hey, you know, here's the deal, trying to like normalize it for people. And then I ended up being like that person and I still kind of am that person who people come to with all of their stuff like postpartum. You know, I'm that person who's like this might be TMI. And then they tell me I'm like nothing is TMI for me. Okay, like literally nothing. So, yeah, I started like becoming that person telling everyone and people started coming to me and then fast forward two years I had Shoshana and that was a much better experience. I switched doctors yeah, it was just a much. It was so much better and I felt so much better after I had her and I had this realization of like, oh wait, actually I now realize how bad I felt the first time around. Yeah, and I'm like now I feel like myself and I just have. I have a baby now, not like who am I? What happened? Like it was much more stable.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So after she was born, that's when I decided to get into like the I started, decided to get certified as a childbirth educator. I binged every single birth podcast out there, like every episode. I just like while I was, you know nursing her trying to leave.
Speaker 1:I was just listening. What were you trying to learn? Yeah, like what. What did like? What was the vision for you? You were like I don't, I just got addicted to it.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's no rational explanation, it's just like I got sucked into learning about this stuff. I think I wanted to, like, maybe understand the dynamics that affected my experience More and, had you, I wanted to understand, like, the reason why certain things were done and this was all you had started to like cultivate this plan of like sharing that with others to help them not have the same experiences.
Speaker 1:You was that, do you feel?
Speaker 3:like I was a conscious goal, or yet, or not. I think when I started I really my view has shifted a bit. When I first started and getting like really inspired Okay, there's that word.
Speaker 2:I started getting really inspired.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like learning, I felt like, okay, the more you know, know equal sign a better experience, right, more education equals a better experience. And now that I'm a little more seasoned I know that that is not. That's not true. It's. We cannot control the outcome, right, you know. So that's kind of my philosophy around birth education.
Speaker 3:It's like I really where I stand now is I want people, kind of like Jacob was saying in the beginning, I want people to know, first of all, to understand the birth process and how it works, and then also understand what options and choices they have for their birth experience, so that they can make the decisions that feel authentic to them. And also, if things like I think people should have a vision of how they want their birth to go. I do think that that's important, but I think it's also important for people to understand, okay, what might shift that vision, how might things change? And then, how can I navigate that? How can I feel empowered to have the conversations with whoever's on my care team? How can I feel confident in the decisions that I'm making? It's more than just like the birth. It's about, like you know, like cultivating that, like confidence in yourself.
Speaker 1:It's so holistic your approach for these, for these families. Like you know, when I, when I had Molly, I was in labor for over 24 hours.
Speaker 1:And you know the the photos in the whole thing and I never dilated fully, but I did push for an hour, ran a fever and then I had to get an emergency C section. Yeah, and we, my doctor, dr Linda, loved her, loved her. She's retired now. She, she actually delivered both my children. And. But here's what was interesting After the C section, right, so you're awake for it? Yeah, yeah, daughter, she's born, she has all her fingers and all her toes, she's healthy, everything's great. I'm like thank God, right. And Dr Linda says I'm so sorry you, just you couldn't deliver. Uh, you know, vaginally what?
Speaker 1:Oh my God. So she said to me, as they were rolling me out, and I looked at her and I said I never even that, never even occurred to me.
Speaker 2:I'm not bummed out about it.
Speaker 1:This feels great, Like I'm pumped Right, Like I was like this is great. And I remember thinking is that weird? That's a little weird.
Speaker 2:I think she's you know, she's projecting, but I'm a therapist. I'm like you know, but you know but that therapist is such a degree that after your emergency C section I was like.
Speaker 1:I think she's projecting because this feels, this is fine, I'm just glad. I'm just glad my daughter is healthy. Right, I really was.
Speaker 2:I really mean that.
Speaker 1:But you know and I'm saying this because, look a couple of things that I see all the time right, we have these expectations of how this is gonna go, how we want it to go, and it's not necessarily gonna go that way, but it's something that you really like, you've tuned, you were like really intuitive around, like helping people navigate that process, because it's so scary too, like ugh, yeah, everything about it, yeah there's a lot there and I also I notice, like what you're saying right now, it's scary.
Speaker 3:Like I, one of my goals in educating people is to help them feel less scared. Obviously, I can't change how someone feels, but I think sometimes people think more information is gonna make them feel more anxious, but it's actually the opposite is true. Especially, I'm trying to be as sensitive as possible and present information in not a scary way, right? So I think that's also part of it is that I personally, for whatever reason, I'm lucky I don't have fear around birth, so I so maybe that just I don't know.
Speaker 3:That's like one of the things that called me to this, like I find it fascinating and amazing and a miracle and I don't find it scary, but I know a lot of my clients do.
Speaker 2:So I try to give over like the passion.
Speaker 3:What are you saying? I found it scary.
Speaker 2:I found it much scarier than I think even my wife did, and you know we like I think, even asked like the first time we met. You know, when I was 16, I had a cousin die from Eclampsia during delivery. You know, she was like in her early 20s and I it's funny Kim was asking me the other day cause she knew how anxious I was while Danny was pregnant and she was just like you seem like to be doing fine. I was like, yeah, I was literally only scared about like the pregnancy and delivery part, like now, with everything seems okay. But you did such a great job of really being there for me.
Speaker 1:Do you think you're doing what you're meant to do? Yeah, that's a broad, that's a. I know that's a.
Speaker 2:I know it's a really good question. How does it feel to say yes to that? How does it feel to say yes to that, it feels good.
Speaker 3:It feels good.
Speaker 2:You seem surprised.
Speaker 3:It's like a huge question Because I don't know what I would put on this earth to do yeah exactly, so I can't say for sure.
Speaker 2:You know, I just have like a private convo with, like you know God?
Speaker 3:or the first like, hey, the Lord, this is why you're here.
Speaker 2:But you come so alive when you speak about this and you know and the whole energy changed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like for me that was like a big like. That was a big shift for me to just start listening to my intuition.
Speaker 1:I mean that was.
Speaker 3:I felt so drawn to this, to the birth world, like I just felt so drawn to it, like even yesterday I was in Trader Joe's and I saw a lady with a baby in the stroller a young baby and the baby was crying and she was trying to to food shop. It took every fiber of my being to like not go over to her and be like, can I hold your baby? Like absolutely. And then there was a pregnant woman. It took I like didn't go over to her. It took a lot of self-control. I'm not sure if I should not approach people I'm deciding but anyway, I just feel like I'm so drawn to like supporting new moms after they have a baby and helping people prepare for their birth. So I feel like that's like telling me something.
Speaker 1:That is totally telling me something.
Speaker 3:That is information. So that's why I feel like, yeah, this is what I'm supposed to be doing and I know that, like when people like Jacob you were saying how much it helps you helps you, I know that I'm good at it on some level.
Speaker 2:You're great at it.
Speaker 1:You're just good at it full stop.
Speaker 2:It's awesome.
Speaker 1:You don't have to add on some level. It was period, right, it's just.
Speaker 2:I'm good at this, this is exactly why I wanted you on here. You know you come so alive when you talk about this. This is something that, like so few people, are passionate and confident in speaking about in a way that also inspires others. That is such a gift.
Speaker 1:I know, Thank you, and I'm so pumped about this because I didn't even you know. I didn't really know what would be taught. I don't usually know, you know, like where the conversations?
Speaker 3:would go.
Speaker 1:And I feel so grateful because there really are so many clients that I have that I think just would like appreciate hearing this from you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So about your business? So tell us a little bit more about it.
Speaker 3:Sure, so my business is called Birth Positive Childbirth Education. I offer classes for expecting families, so childbirth preparation classes. I also do cover postpartum preparation because of really because I felt so blindsided by my own postpartum experience so I made me it makes sure to include some information about the postpartum period, and I'm also certified full spectrum Zula, which means that I can support people during their birth as a birth Zula, and I can also support people in the postpartum period by providing postpartum support and care, which is basically like the mom that everyone wants after they have a baby, but a lot of people, don't, lauren, you know?
Speaker 3:So that's what a postpartum Zula is, and well, I had one.
Speaker 1:I had a postpartum Zula for both my kids. I did because my mom died when I was 15.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I love actually how you just phrase that. I like wanna cry because I'm just like Donna Iric, who is now retired, but she was, she was an older person, you know, and she like single. I just think like if I didn't have I don't know what David and I, I mean we would have kept carried on. But gosh, she walked into my house one day and she looked at me and she just she just went, I got him. This was when I had Alex, but she was just my postpartum for both. Give me him, just go upstairs, go to sleep. And I was like, are you sure? And she's like right now, like you need to go to sleep right now.
Speaker 3:You're right yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, I just for the first time I saw like this parallel, because I don't know if inherently we see, like the, the transition of feminine wisdom, like during the birth process, from older women to younger women, throughout this. But I think there's a beautiful parallel in that transition, in how intergenerational wisdom is passed in the moment of birth via women, historically, and then also when, like the baby's taken by the men to do the circumcision and the breathe me law.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, that's a powerful moment, yeah it feels like that and you know, both are both beautiful beautiful and scary moments and there's a nice parallel in that that. I think in some ways, maybe has really been lost.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Think so, I think so what do you mean yeah, I mean there's certainly Go ahead, go ahead. No, no, you go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, there certainly is what to say. That, though I'll speak about the feminine side, the knowledge of birth, just on a or I'll say like the normalization of birth has been lost, because we don't have that, we just it used to be like that when people were, you know, home birth was more common and birth was just like more normal and you lived in more, you know, you lived closer to family and it was just normal Like, oh, my cousin's having a baby, my mom's having a baby, like everyone's having a baby, it's fine. Now it's like we're just much more separated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so she's not as communal.
Speaker 3:People. You know most people are going to the hospital to have their birth. So even if you have children, younger children, they're not seeing their mother go into labor, they're just like okay, mommy went to the hospital, she came back with baby, you know. So it's kind of like lost and I think there's this cloud of mysteries around it, but not like there is a mystery of birth which can be really positive. But there's also this mystery which is a little bit scary because like well, what happened?
Speaker 1:Like how did?
Speaker 3:that happen. It's like fear of the unknown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah.
Speaker 2:so I think, yeah, there's a lot of work that could be done there, but Can you, for those people who are, like potentially interested in, like seeking your services, you know, to kind of remove a little more mystery in that like how does the process work? How does someone reach out to you? How does like the classes work? Are they group, Are they couple? Like what's going on?
Speaker 3:Sure. So the best way to get information about what I'm offering is on my website, that's b-b-e-birthpositivecom. You can email me at b-birthpositivegmailcom.
Speaker 1:We'll put this all in the show notes too, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so those are the ways to find out. Slash, get in touch. If someone is has questions and they're not sure what they wanna do, I offer, you know, a free call that we can just get on the phone and talk and I could see how you know if we're a good fit and if what I do could help you.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, it's almost like therapy.
Speaker 3:This is great, yeah, yeah. And in terms of the like structure. So I offer private classes as well as group classes. Right now, my group classes are virtual and my private classes are in person. So if you are a very dedicated client and you travel all the way from Philly to Long Island to take your class, like Danny and Jacob, we could do him first.
Speaker 2:We were there. Anyway, we were there. That is like we do have a lot of New Yorkers.
Speaker 3:We have a lot of New Yorkers that listen to this podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm based in Nassau County and I work with local clients privately, so that is where I'm at right now In terms of doula support. That's kind of evolving. That's like a newer, a newer addition to what I offer. I feel grateful that listened to myself, I guess listened to my intuition, because it's much more energizing to be doing something that feels authentic to who I am. And even though what we spoke about today was just really specifically related to my career shift, I think that that experience of having the realization of this doesn't work for me. This is something that I'm really drawn to and now I'm gonna do that Like that experience of doing something that feels authentic to me. It's not just limited to what I do professionally. It comes out in other areas too.
Speaker 2:Once you have felt the bliss of being aligned, you can't unsee it, and then you calibrate more and more through it. When you were talking about it, you just heard the lyric from the Janis Joplin song like Peace of my. Heart. I'm not gonna sing it, but it says you know you got it when it makes you feel good and the way she sings, whatever that's.
Speaker 3:But I'm grateful.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes people think, oh, you have to find yourself by going to a retreat or making like something.
Speaker 1:Don't knock it. There are people that do that, I know look, I found myself going to Israel and everything you did a retreat.
Speaker 2:But I just wanna highlight that you don't have to do that. Not everyone can take two years out of their life like I took out of my life.
Speaker 1:You found it, or like a weekend Sedona, right yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know, lauren, you found it by continuing to push and rediscover it, and your children have a lot to do with that. There's I guess there's gratitude to your own kids and helping you figure that out.
Speaker 3:Right? I think so yeah.
Speaker 1:And I have gratitude for you.
Speaker 2:You have no idea, thank you, you have no idea.
Speaker 3:Thank you for letting me come on. Sorry, it felt like enlightening to myself to just tell over this whole experience, so I appreciate you, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're so happy that you could come.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:What a moment.
Speaker 2:Oh, and one more thing, if anyone's interested in hearing your full birth story, didn't you tell it on a podcast at some point? Another one I did.
Speaker 3:I told my first. Yeah, I told my first, second and fourth on the podcast, but the third one got left out.
Speaker 2:Okay, which is? Is that something that, like, you'd like us to make a link to?
Speaker 3:Sure, I get to send you the link.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right. So, lauren, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker 2:We feel so grateful to have you. Thanks, Kim.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, welcome, so glad I know you now All right, thanks, lauren, likewise.
Speaker 3:Okay, thanks so much. Thanks so much. Enjoy your day, okay, you too.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If anything in today's episode spoke to you, please like, subscribe, rate and review. You can also help us grow by following us on Instagram and Facebook at Intuitive Choices Podcast. Most importantly, make sure to share today's episode with friends and family.
Speaker 1:And if there's anybody that you know that you think would be a great guest on Intuitive Choices, please email us at intuitivechoicespodcast at gmailcom. Finally, if you wanna know more about our mental health practice, intuitive counseling and wellness, please check us out at intuitivecounselingoffillycom.