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Intuitive Choices
Intuitive Choices is a podcast which asks and answers the question, "What is intuition and how can it help us". Philadelphia based mental health therapists, Kimberley Dobbs and Jacob Miller, hold conversations with guests who have made brave choices to live more meaningful lives.
If you know any inspirational people who you would like us to interview, please let us know at intuitive.choices.podcast@gmail.com
***Please note that these episodes are not recorded therapy sessions and that listening to this podcast is not considered an alternative to mental health therapy.***
If you are interested in mental health therapy please visit us at our practices website at intuitivecounselingofphilly.com
We hope you enjoy the show!
Intuitive Choices
Finding Healing in the Midst of Crisis: Insights from Kim and Jacob
Stay safe. Be well. Please seek out help if you are struggling.
Hey Kim, hey Jacob.
Speaker 2:What's on your mind?
Speaker 1:So after the massacre in Israel on October 7th, we tried to record an episode to talk about nonsense, I think. I think at least it was not to talk about nonsense, but it was me blabbering to you about what I was processing.
Speaker 2:No, that's not what happened. That's not what happened. What?
Speaker 1:happened.
Speaker 2:So understandably so. After the massacre on October 7th came in and you were like Kim, I can't stop crying and I have to process this, and I feel like just talking this out with you could potentially be really helpful. And I was like all right, let's go for it. So that's what we.
Speaker 1:That was the conversation which we recorded, which I had thought maybe we would publish, but we're definitely not publishing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not that there's anything wrong with it.
Speaker 1:It's just not for this, whatever, yeah, okay, this is what I think I've realized since then. Yeah, I think I was experiencing trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what we call that.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:Vicarious trauma.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's vicarious. I mean, it isn't isn't vicarious. We can maybe touch that on because I just felt personally attacked. You know, like these are people who want to. If they could kill me, they would kill me, they would, yeah, so vicarious.
Speaker 2:I think it is. I don't want to get into the weeds of it, that's fine.
Speaker 1:But I I.
Speaker 2:But you're not there and you're not experiencing it, but you do feel a level of trauma knowing that A that's happening to other people and you're taking in all kinds of imagery and and things around it and I think that I think that it's very important to that it very well, because you are.
Speaker 1:Jewish, that if you were there, that it would very likely happen to you as well. I think, if we're going to, yeah, if we're going to call it vicarious trauma which again I'll process a little bit, I don't know how the terms apply. I'm not a trauma therapist, but you are, you're trained in trauma, yeah, yeah, and so you're saying I'm experiencing vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that this is a big part of what's happening for you, for sure.
Speaker 1:Of which, I agree, there is definitely a high level of vicarious trauma. I think there's there's other traumas going on here, but this is the point. This is what I want to talk to you about. I think I was experiencing a level of processing which could be described as like a freeze response to that trauma, vicarious or not.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And and so like. To my understanding, there's four responses to trauma or stress. Right, there's so fight, flight, freeze and phone. And I was in like a freeze pattern, which makes me feel like I didn't have agency and I really didn't know what to do. You know, like I'm not, there's no one to confront, there's nowhere to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just the experience. There's no way to like fix it, fix the situation.
Speaker 1:But this is how I think I ended up fixing it for myself. It just took a while to realize what I needed to do, and that was figure out. What did it mean for me to fight and feel my own agency? Yeah, or feel your own agency via fighting right yeah and and the ways in which I did that was I Reached out to people in my community to just feel connected to them. I I also. Why do you? Why do you?
Speaker 2:think you did that like? What do you think connecting with people in your community did for you? Like, name it.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think.
Speaker 2:Can I tell you what I did for you? Yeah it made you not feel so alone.
Speaker 1:Yes, which the freeze response inherently made me feel alone because I wasn't connecting with other people right and other ways in which I feel like I engage in like quote-unquote, like, like, like fight or agency was to Tell people I love them, which is what you're saying, is the connection. You know, that's a form of a fight tell people I love them and by me connecting with them, I wanted them to also feel like they weren't alone. And each of the four Stress or trauma responses that we just, we just named, each one of them could be appropriated at a certain point. There's times where we have to run, there's times we have to freeze, there's times we have to phone, and the time was after fight.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing when you're experiencing a trauma response like your, I mean that that part of your brain, right your prefrontal cortex, goes offline. So there isn't really a part of you that's going. Maybe I ought to stick around for this, Of course maybe I ought to run right, but I think what was? I think what you're really naming is that, like your actual Trauma response was like you just froze.
Speaker 2:Yes and then, as you started to move through that right, your prefrontal cortex started to come back online. Then you started to go Okay, how can I feel better? Yes how can I move through this incredible pain and discomfort that I'm experiencing?
Speaker 1:And that was with tapping into my agency and doing what I know how to do, which is use my words to connect with others.
Speaker 2:That's me, that's a personal thing and I would say that that's that. I would say that's kind of universal right, as if you're a human being and you have language. Yeah, that's a big, that's a big tool for us.
Speaker 1:What are? What are other ways that you maybe have seen clients engage in their own agency to move through trauma?
Speaker 2:Oh, Gosh music, listening to music, even being creative, lots of people find some comfort in, in books, even even say what we want about social media. But social media, you know, used for good, can be incredibly helpful, right, because it kind of goes back to what you were, what we were talking about, you not feeling alone, you know you're reaching out to your friends, you're reaching out to family, and Sometimes we just kind of need to feel like we're not alone in this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I truly believe that that in this moment we are not alone, but we need to just continue to Remind ourselves and remind others that we are together, to not let it be, but to engage in that connection.
Speaker 2:Yep, and sometimes, you know, working for that connection can be hard, but it's worth it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We, we really do. I think. As human beings, we are created for connection and I think that it it does, it can really help fill our cup.
Speaker 1:So, so, this is just what I'd like to say me to wrap out, to end up this like little Moment yeah if anyone is experiencing trauma explicitly or vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah um.
Speaker 1:Seek mental health Counseling therapy yeah, get help into whatever fashion that that will serve you and figure out how to engage in your own agency and give yourself some slack to know that you're, that you're processing like a normal human response to fear.
Speaker 2:Normative normative normative. Look at me like nitpicking you. Yeah to know that, like you do not have to do it alone. No, no should and it doesn't necessarily meet have to be a mental health professional, obviously someone who is traumatized, ideal and also, you know, just just Finding yourself, your community and and being a part of that in whatever way you can yeah, so care for yourself, care for others and and Everyone should be well I.